M63
The possible tragedy of faith.
October 19 2012
Comments
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RHP User
13 years ago
I don't think life should be gambled but I do think it should be lived. To avoid all excitment and have a sedentary and sheltered life isn't living, it's existing. At the same time, when I think of living, I don't think of abandoning a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
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RHP User
13 years ago
anyone can do because he has already done it...but maybe his mum could meet with the priest to determine what other advice he is giving this young man. The one certainty in life is that we are all going to die.None of us know exatly when,it could be in the next breath we take. Perhaps he wants to do as much as he can,it's his life afterall as painfull and nerve wracking as it must be for those who love him. x R
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RHP User
13 years ago
Firstly Im sorry to hear of your story LRE The longer I live - this I know - that Life is Random and there is no real rhyme or reason, no answers , it just is As one who works in conventional medicine, I cringed intially when I read your post...the scientist in me screams no , the healer within me weeps......................but Im in a somewhat similar situation now, where I am facing my own issues medically and naturally - I am questioning everything. My own conventional and medically condoned treatment has not given me the results I so wanted and it has all but left me ruined physically, altered me both inside and out and left me drained and doubting ..............so is this life...? Are we under a obligation to fight when perhaps we must accept the alternative - being that we let go of the fight and just focus on life and living instead ? I do not condone what this religious figure did........but I do not have problem with a person having hope - is he cured..? .perhaps not...... but if he is living the life that he wants, using what ever time he has left constructively and creating memories for his love ones to keep when he is gone.....then who is rite ?....his surgeon/oncologist or the 'priest" - Dying sucks....- for those that love us- its even harder for them to watch.......letting go is one of the damndest thing a person will ever have to do for another For those who have hope they have been cured, then let them be and let them live the life they so want ..while they can, for them.... Science/medicine versus religion will always be debated... If he is cured then one can only say this For those who believe no explanation is necessary For those who do not believe then no explanation is possible... I know this also When you take hope away from anybody, you take away everything - and does anyone have the rite to do that to another ?
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RHP User
13 years ago
Well one of them.. That being that we have a responsibility to those who love us. A responsibility to take reasonable care of our selves. There is a difference between doing some living and doing something ludicrous based on being misled.Yeah we are all slowly dieing and all. But I see no reason to make it a bloody race..
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RHP User
13 years ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe deep down the guy was sick of being wrapped up in cotton wool, doing things that make people happy may just have a therapeutic affect, whether this priest has actually cured him or not at least there is that hope of living and the chemicals in the brain can alter the body to a certain point, there have been cases where this has happened. Getting the endorphins going can help heal. there is a book by Louise Hay called YOu Can Heal Your Life, this woman had cancer and this book details her techniques on what worked for her, there are other things like visualisation techniques which has helped some in keeping the cancer at bay, positive approaches can alter the chemicals in the brain which can help heal the body, there is a lot of information on people that have either kept their cancer at bay or actually minimised the size of the tumour by visualisation, in the past doctors would pooh hoo this but there has been too many break throughs for it to be merely a fluke, maybe this priest and the congregation has instilled a really positive vibe in the guy which has helped him at least to feel better and that there is hope, and anywhich way going on living life and enjoying oneself may actually help the process too - of course it would be preferable to show some restraint on extreme sports or the like, I do hope this helps, not saying this priest is right or wrong but there is credence to positive input which could change the outcome enormously
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RHP User
13 years ago
Those priests love to fuck people over, especially if your under ten I would be the mother from hell of that was my child However if the end was on the way , then I would encourge them to jump out of or over anything they were capable of doing. Having been through three years of hell, then any window of feeling good even if its a pacebo is a bonus
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RHP User
13 years ago
So i'm just wondering...Has the tumour actually regressed (as in he has had scans and medical evidence stating it) or is that what he firmly believes because a priest told him so?I don't mean to be insensitive but i just wasn't sure.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Has a lot to offer here, for your friend and her son. The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, for a start. Also, Bernie Siegel's (MD) books, especially Love, Medicine and Miracles. More recently he's been lecturing on the immune-boosting power of the mind - positive thought can quite literally prolong life, even heal. I'm not a believer in life having any intrinsic value or purpose - to me it's a case of 'we're born, we live, we die'. What we do in the living stage - including how we deal with what life throws at us - is a choice, our choice. It's very hard when someone we love is making choices we don't agree with or struggle to accept, or when we think they might have been duped by some kind of con-man. But in the end, it's their life.
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RHP User
13 years ago
You can lead a full and exciting life without endangering your self. There are thousands of other things the chap could have done and has done from what I can gather, to this end.He would not have done this if some god bothering busy body had not misled him.The tumour is being monitored and treated and is currently benign (if I recall Mums story correctly). But a shock my kill him or make it malignant again.He may live another 50 years.. Happily and fully. being productive and doing fun things. He did not need to do this and only did it to "celebrate his cure".. His words.Still AngryLRE
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RHP User
13 years ago
we just want to believe what we want to believe and do seemingly stupid things out of fear.Because someone told him what he wanted to hear .He wasn't really celebrating I suggest,he was putting his fear of dying to the test.Rational thought didn't enter into it.I am not making an excuse for him ,but I can understand why he would do it,selfish though it appears to be.....I assume he didn't tell his family before he jumped for a very good reason,x R
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RHP User
13 years ago
in my opinion if the placebo affect can help this child thats fantastic... anything that works or at least mentally helps has to be a good thing....ive never experienced this myself but a close friend of mine has...his second child was born needing a kidney transplant...born with no plumbing basically...ive watched this whole scenario unfold and its scary,having had 2 healthy kids of my own, i just cant imagine it....so to get to my point...one day chatting with him we got on to the subject of how he remains positive through the pain...it was quite an in depth conversation..loosely based on what purpose of life...just to give you some context.... but his answer to me basically was this and i quote"once you accept that this is your lifes purpose to collect as much information or experience to return to the one on death you will truly begin to live...all experience is equally valid be it positive or negative as this expresses the dual nature of a complete existence"..that meant alot to me i hope it helps"
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RHP User
13 years ago
No disrespect intended LRE. BUt, why is we all want to be angry at someone? The kid is still alive, and he has had an absolutely fat time jumping. To say some God Bothering busy body has misled him, maybe a little harsh, and certainly premature. Benign means - Non malignant: self limiting. As you say, he MAY live until he is 50, or more. The tumor MAY die.. a thousnad things may or may not happen to the lad... BUT, that parents and friends and family have a beautiful time to focus on their existance with their children/friend, and their God (whoever they see that as). Many parents NEVER get that.. For instance.. My friends young bloke just killed himself. No note, no prior warning, nothing.. No God Bothering busy body to tell him shit. HIS parents and friends will be turtured for live wondering what THEY did wrong...and what they COULD have done to prevent it. I know whos parent I would rather be!! God Bothering busy body or not!! Caveman perspective
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'LittleRedEngine' Well one of them.. That being that we have a responsibility to those who love us. A responsibility to take reasonable care of our selves. There is a difference between doing some living and doing something ludicrous based on being misled.Yeah we are all slowly dieing and all. But I see no reason to make it a bloody race.. We both know we're never going to agree on this. For the record, I don't think any of us have any such responsibility. It's all optional. Much of the conflict and suffering in life comes from imposing our opinion on others and expecting them to agree ...
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RHP User
13 years ago
Did the priest actually encourage this guy to jump? Perhaps things may have got out of context and the guy was feeling so elated he thought he could do anything he liked? Maybe the Priest didn't actually tell him he could do the jump, maybe you haven't got all the facts, the only information you got(or at least written on here) is that he rang his grandmother and told her he did the jump. Sometimes people want to believe and in that may have misinterpreted things or maybe all the facts were not given to the priest things can get lost in translation. I am not sticking up for the priest nor doubting the other side but there seems to be some loose ends here and as this could be an emotional issue for you perhaps you are caught up in the emotion of it all and not all the facts have been gathered, maybe a lot of assumptions have been made and there has been a gross communication glitch.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Nobody can be misled...You either believe by faith or you don't
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RHP User
13 years ago
...and many of us may have answered differently if we were as close as you. Still, I have to agree with Cavey on this one. It's always been my feeling that suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. Had something gone wrong for the young fella (and thankfully it hasn't) his family would have grieved and maybe vented a bit of anger at the preacher but they would not have been left to blame themselves. As far as evangelists go, I think most of us are fully behind you in that regard.
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RHP User
13 years ago
You know - if you had a radio chat program I would probably listen to it, and I'd be so subtley and gradually indoctrinated into the cult of your personality that I wouldn't even notice. That is to say, I appreciate the thought-provoking perspectives you bring to the bakery. And in response to the question, I stumbled across a quote the other day that I thought was particularly fitting: "Hate the belief, love the believer." Sums up my attitude to religion.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I don't see quality of life really having anything to do with this. The bloke has been misled. Manipulated.And it has caused unnecessary hurt for others.Simple..
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RHP User
13 years ago
It is the quality of the attitude that he has chosen to take, that he now claims as his own regardless of how he got it, that is making him happy, that I've seen cure cancer - that he believes has cured his own... and it even prevents suicide. Parents can be so selfish, justifiably so, but at what cost? The quality of HIS life? And too at the cost of a mother and sons relationship. I know which one I would choose.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'coasteride'in my opinion if the placebo affect can help this child thats fantastic... anything that works or at least mentally helps has to be a good thing....ive never experienced this myself but a close friend of mine has...his second child was born needing a kidney transplant...born with no plumbing basically...ive watched this whole scenario unfold and its scary,having had 2 healthy kids of my own, i just cant imagine it....so to get to my point...one day chatting with him we got on to the subject of how he remains positive through the pain...it was quite an in depth conversation..loosely based on what purpose of life...just to give you some context.... but his answer to me basically was this and i quote "once you accept that this is your lifes purpose to collect as much information or experience to return to the one on death you will truly begin to live...all experience is equally valid be it positive or negative as this expresses the dual nature of a complete existence".. that meant alot to me i hope it helps "
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RHP User
13 years ago
Are you saying that, the lad should just die in quite? How has he been manipulated? How dare he do something that might cause hurting to those around him? Mate: honestly.. ok, you are passionately against priests... AND, I was brought up a CATHOLIC boy, so I MAY have more reason to be so... BUT.. I reckon..I would say... "Lad! personally, I don't think the Priest knows shit about anything.. but.. if you want to jump out of perfectly good plane.. OR off a perfectly good Bridge with a lacky band on your ankles... Then DO IT BOY... DO IT" You know LRE: it the Tumor becomes malignant... then, in a months time, the lad may not be able to do ANYTHING at all.. even whipe his bum.. Go ask the kid.. ask him if there is anything ELSE he wants to do.. look at HIS bucket list... Then come back here. and ask for donations to help him achieve them... You will get a damned good quid to send this kid out into his own dreams.... AND.. if all the adrenalin oxygenates his body enough.. who knows.. IT MIGHT JUST CURE HIM... THEN.. above all..... IF the tumour DOES go away.. are you going to come back here and say.. "Listen all.. I want to appologise.... that Priest DID cure it...." or will you go... "IT WASN"T the priest... it was his own body... it was the Chemo.. it was ANYTHING EXCEPT the priest...." When, in fact.. here is what is written exactly about this subject in the Bible.. Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Incedently... I know Men and Women who take this literally...and lay hands on ANIMALS... and the damned animals get better.. Knock it, call it coincidence.. do whatever you like.. but.. WHO KNOWS?? What if..... ? Cavey.. trying not to upset TOO MANY people here
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RHP User
13 years ago
Or was his perspective of death changed to understand that even a sneeze could kill him??? If the boy/man can accept the potential outcomes and be happy, why can't you??
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RHP User
13 years ago
Once upon a time I may have believed some God could cure things. Now I don't.I do believe making such claims is manipulative. This post was suposed to be about manipulating vulnerable people into doing something they should not. It was not meant to be a "how good is his life" thread.If the tumour self cures it will not be because of God. I'd buy a piece of the adrenalin theory though.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I would rather see my son, and myself, live in a state of happiness above all else. Secondary to that is living free of brainwashing. Free to think for ourselves. This includes, but is not limited to: religion; my mother; "common knowledge"; News; the ability to read without the ability to question. For myself, free thinking is a foundation of happiness. For my son, interaction with my mother is a foundation of happiness. To me, these things are contradictory. Do I reserve the right to keep him from her? No. But I do try to temper her "evil" influence. (Subthought: is she really that bad if she managed to raise me? Or am I that amazing that I can overcome her?). Influence, in its many forms, is a fluid and painful thing. Kinda like being bathed in acid. For those of us that choose to do so, we can coat ourselves in base, first. Hurts more in the short term, for long term gain. Perhaps.
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