M55
Single Guy Discrimination
October 23 2008
Comments
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RHP User
17 years ago
Kidding. I do get where you're coming from but I think discrimination is a bit too dramatic a word to be using hun. Parties and clubs are simply mindful of creating an atmosphere that allows couples and women to feel at ease with the group scene. Many are newbies who have no idea what to expect and unless you are a woman, you can never really appreciate how scary it can be to enter a room full of men who are there with the hope (expectation isn't the appropriate term) of getting some sex. Yes, most men are lovely and understand 'no' means no, but sadly it really only takes one idiot to spoil an evening for many people. Allowing men to attend carte blanche is a recipe for disaster. You also really need to know what it's like to be an organiser of a party or club. You probably have no idea how fickle couples can be and that running parties and clubs is a labour of love. As you mentioned, Brian and Leesa do an awesome job at CI. They do include single guys with open arms and if they label their guys as well-behaved, well it's sadly necessary. Couples wouldn't attend CI unless Leesa endorsed her single male guests in this way. Also, at the end of the day it's also an issue of supply and demand. You may not realise how many couples actually aren't into MF play. Many are seeking girl/girl fun and sadly single guys aren't really going to facilitate that. You can't force women to want to play with other men so I think your discrimination idea kinda falls flat there. Unless you think a woman should be a equal opportunity shagger? :)
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RHP User
17 years ago
LOL yes you do make some good points and I concede a few things: a) I am inexperienced other than having attended CI a few times, so my opinion is based on reading, seeing other people's experiences etc, not personal other than a few limited times. b) I am very fond of both Bryan and Leesa and admire what they do and how they do it. My post is in no way a personal attack on them or their club, but an observation in general of the industry. I guess also I wanted to achieve two things: 1 - venting my position as it shits me to tears , and 2 - generate some discussion on it other than "oh you whinging c*** and show us your d**k and" so on and so forth. FYI under the Anti Discrimination Act (Qld) 1991: Division 4 S46 (1) provision of goods and services Division 9 Club Membership, s94 (c) and (e) All make exclusionary behaviour and pricing differentials based on sex/gender unlawful at law. and you actually said something in your post that nailed it "equal opportunity".... and that is, in my humble opinion, what is missing. Anyway, i know no one gives a shit and I'm just wasting time.
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RHP User
17 years ago
First of all, nice rant, Brish :) I am partial to a rant myself, so no offence taken here. This really isn't a direct response as such (although I suppose it is), but more, my opinion on patrons in general in swinger clubs. I have been attending swinger's clubs regularly for two years as a comitted half of a couple, a play friend, and a single woman, all at various times. I don't agree with the extortionist pricing that single guys have to put up with, especially seeing as I am a single girl, and frankly I have as of late seen some pretty fuckking piss poor behaviour from single girls at clubs myself. Yes, in the past (the bad old days), SOME single guys made a bad name for the rest of you. People do like to make grand sweeping generalising and stereotypical statements regarding single men. For some reason (whatever reason.. I personally have no idea), this stereotype still exists. I would like to think that most couples can and DO make their own judgements and decisions on play partners, whether they be single guys, single girls, or couples, based on how that person interacts socially and behaves in general. If they make a bad decision, oh well! Their problem! Should have chosen better. The fact is.. fuckkwits exist everywhere, male AND female, and hopefully club operators know their business well enough to regulate who comes in to their clubs and what happens and DOESN'T happen while they are there. How much a person is charged based on their gender or relationship status seems to be a direct result of money making, teamed with stereotype... I don't know, I've never run a club. This is just my view as a patron. You could reverse the situation and say that single girls who are allowed in to clubs for free, or at a very minimal price, are being used by club operators as 'bait' for couples and single guys. One is attracted to the other and vice versa, and all swinging couples in one way or another require variations on the theme to get what they want. I have NEVER had a bad experience with a single guy at any club, but the fact is, alot of single guys are demonstratably willing to pay whatever it takes to get into a club, and as long as they are willing to pay the price, they will be charged for it. I wonder, would single girls be as willing to pay the same prices. I can't answer this question myself until I am charged those prices. xxSoubi
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RHP User
17 years ago
Single guy entry fee is no different to a non member couple entry free. And when our single guys become members( just like couples) they then enter for $50, ( the same price as a member couple) So you see there is no discrimination. Now as for the single ladies, i am sure the single guys would like to see single ladies at our venue, after all they are not here just for the couples. We choose to allow single ladies in for Free on some friday Nights so they can meet and mingle with the single guys. This works well for everyone as it has been proven over the years when most of our single guys are now couples. If we allowed single guys in for free how many do you think would come. the whole atmosphere of the club would be ruined, and no couples would come or single ladies as we would be seen to be a meat market.... Hope that helps clarify. Bryan and Leesa Couples International.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Just a note: About discrimination: It seems Couples International should be the ones concerned at discrimination as we are the only club that is mentioned. and that of our Names "Bryan and Leesa". There are many other clubs all over Australia, we wonder why they are not mentioned and only CI is???? In fact there are many that charge very high prices indeed and you must be a member to be a single guy to enter??? So as for discrimination, i think that would be US once again. NOTE: We are called COUPLES INTERNATIONAL. We are about couples, not singles.... We encourage Single ladies to enter and INVITE single guys to attend . Simple as that.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Thanks for clarifying the pricing issue CI (B or L not sure which is responding here), but to clarify, please note my second posting quote "b) I am very fond of both Bryan and Leesa and admire what they do and how they do it. My post is in no way a personal attack on them or their club, but an observation in general of the industry. " and in my first post quote "(and I do give respect to Bryan and Leesa here)". so note I am NOT targeting or specifically singling out you or your club - yes i've mentioned you because I've met you, and been to CI, and note also in the same post I say clearly this is a general observation of the industry as a whole, from my perspective. Please accept my apologies for any offences taken, they were not intended and I had hoped i was clear in my communication of that in my posts. Soubs thanks for your post too, it helps to get other perspectives and observations too. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive, perhaps not, taken literally, at law, its a vulnerability. Whether anyone cares enough to address, or pursue it, is another matter. Ultimately I dont' believe anyone will, but what I believe, and what actually happens are two different things all together. thanks for your inputs.
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RHP User
17 years ago
This is Leesa writing this one, and i am not sure where to start. Here are a few examples of discrimination with regards to ladies and guys, and it is all part of life in general. 1: I go to the hairdresser and get my hair cut, a simple trim and it costs me $35.00 A male goes ( 1 have 2 boys ) and ( 1 daughter) and they charge my boys for a simple hair cut $8.50. OMG where is the equal rights in that. 2: wages we all know that it happens there. 3: There are ladies only gyms. ( no men allowed ) 4: strip clubs , if i enter with my husband i am free most times. 5: Ladies nights at pubs ( gold coast we have been to them where gents are allowed to go ), ladies get in for free and guys have to pay. 6: Male dominated clubs where ladies are not allowed. 7: Price of a wax for me is so much more than the price of a wax for bryan. 8: On some dating site single ladies get free profiles etc, and guys have to pay. Would the single ladies be on here if they had to pay??? I wonder. As or the statement that the single guys will pay whatever it is to get into a club, that is simply not true. If they dont have to money to enter they simply wont come just like couples and single ladies. Brisguy69007 your comments were in now taken as offense towards us and we understand where you come from, but we are not the only club out there, we may well be the only Approved Club , but that is not any way a reason to comment on us only. Just to clarify we have not and never will take someones opinion in any way as an offense and never have. Having been in the lifestyle for 17 years we both feel we know a little about how it works and how to make sure our patrons enjoy the facilities Bryan and I have worked so hard to create, and just what they expect when they arrive. It works and we are proud. We have made sure we dont allow our single guys to feel discriminated against, in fact totally the opposite. We have offered over the last 3 months FREE club membership to our single guys, and heaps of other opportunities. We gave away around $3000 worth of club memberships to single guys. !!!!!!! In fact there are some clubs that don't allow single guys to walk around their venue un-accompanied by a lady!!!!!That is bad discrimination.( even if you come as a couple ) That is just a small example of the ways our society discriminates against sexes. etc. It is not just the swingers clubs or the lifestyle in general it is society. I think you are targeting the wrong part of society, you should start at the top and work your way down to swingers clubs i feel. So to target one lifestyle is purely not exploring all the aspects that our society puts discrimination into place. As for swingers clubs, Our thoughts on your comments above: Bryan and Leesa are: There is no way to go with this, we will defintely not put the prices down for single guys, so are you saying we should raise the price for single ladies to $100 a single lady non member and $50 for single lady members. It seems one single lady would be happy to pay that to attend, so we would love to hear from other single ladies. Being that most of the ladies that attend our club are single mums, with small children and very little income!!!! It seems to me that is simply not the way to go, we encourage single ladies. And we invite single guys after being selected. What do you single ladies think??? Are you prepared to pay the same price as men to attend a swingers club, and give us some feedback on your thoughts on why you should NOT or why you should.?? OR Maybe we should all start charging a set fee to enter for all say $20 each like some strip clubs,( of course charging everyone not just men , and then charge for hire of rooms( limit the time so say $30 for half hour) , towels use age hire , soft drinks, mixers used, corkage, potato chips, coffee, tea, bottled water, condoms, lube , mints, lollies cleaning fee for using the rooms. We personally don't think that would go down favorably. Ladies please give us your thoughts on this we are very interested. Thank for reading Look forward to feedback we are happy to read anything that anyone has to say, after all, we are setting a bench mark being the First and Only Council Approved Venue for Swingers in Australia and your feedback will set the bench mark for the lifestyle. Leesa
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RHP User
17 years ago
I think you may just have to be patient. More clubs will recognise that a lot of ladies (of a couple or single) are seeking single guys and will dedicate at least one night a week to inviting men in. Until such time, you can't really blame organisers for engineering things to suit the majority of patrons' tastes and interests. I don't agree with charging single guys more to get into clubs but I think most places are being reasonable these days, not so much in fear of prosecution but it's just plain looks opportunistic. Tacky! On a final note, I think you have to keep in mind that the anti-discrimination Act exists to protect people from being disadvantaged socially or financially by the discriminatory actions of persons or organisatons. The Act exists but how it is put into practice will depend on how badly the disadvantage impacts on the claimant's life. In short, out of a single guy being denied entry to a swingers club and a disabled child being denied entry to a local private school, I think the Act is there to protect the latter more and rightly so. I don't overall think that no one gives a shit so much as there being other more pressing things to give a shit to. I'm sure you can give it a go if you felt strongly about it but would you really really want to go to a club where your entry is forced by law and not by a genuine desire to have you there? Things will change bit by bit :)
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RHP User
17 years ago
All I know , from a single female perspective is I will refuse to go to a swingers clubs until single men are allowed in in equal numbers to women. Im not bi and have no intention of fucking a married man,,why would I bother with a swingers club? 5 single men allowed entry? woop de do Cheers and Good luck in places other than swingers clubs Dev
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RHP User
17 years ago
Hi Guys I have been a financial single lady member of CI for approximately 2 years. I attend regularly when not dating and less frequently when dating. I am into single guys (not couples or girls) and thus predominately attend on a Friday night. I highly support any efforts by club management to weed out undesirables and keep the standard high through vetting, pricing and behaviour observation. I enjoy the environment because it is predominately social and if you want to play a bit and there is a man you have a mutual attraction to, mood is right, you can play. IT IS A SAFE PLACE... I would not attend CI if I had to pay for the pleasure of having a sexual moment with a man. I pay my membership and on occasion pay a small fee on a Saturday night. If I want to take a friend with me, one of us will pay the member couple rate. I attend CI because I am discriminated against every day in society if I express my sexuality as a confident woman. I hide my sexuality in my every day work and social life because it devalues me to a potential lover, makes other men think you are easy prey, opens you to sexual harrassment in the workplace, makes you appear a threat to other women, thus open to attack from them and a subject of gossip and nasty name calling. It is easier to not be sexual in the every day world as a woman. You are punished for it in every way if you ignore this social norm. If I wanted to go somewhere that contained a room full of men that have entered for free, haven't been vetted and can dress anyway they want to pick up some sex, I would just head down to my local pub any night of the week. I am pretty sure I could find someone to take me home. Yuuucckkkk... Pubs are a safe male domain, CI and clubs like it are safe female domains. Unfortunately, other men have made it hard for people like you Brisguy. Many have behaved badly and have proven themselves untrustworthy. Get over it.
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RHP User
17 years ago
I have read this posting with interest, for going to a club and meeting someone specifically for sex, knowing that other than having a relaxing social time, is the main objective of going out, scares the shite out of me. I'm not sure why, so maybe someone can help me work it out. The fact is that people are all discriminated against at some point in their lives for something; sex, gender, race, colour, creed, religion, hairstyle, weight, shoes and even something as petty as not being able to dance well. I wonder if the cost of entry for a male to a club of this ilk is based on behaviour of ill-bred, loudmouth, idiotic drunk yahoos who think it's a brothel by proxy and do not have the sense to know the difference. Many studies show that swinging these days is quite a sophistocated practise. It takes place in respectable estabilishments where privacy and boundries are respected. something that doesn't seem to take place in mainstream clubs, pubs and alcohol infused meeting places. I, for one, think that if I was keen for sex and had the opportunity to check out the scene, I probably would. I just hope that there where guys there who liked chicks with a fuller figure. Having been on various websties of this nature, I know that CI has a great reputation, and would be somewhere I would choose to visit if I had the inclination. The truth is that we are all discriminated against. For whatever reason. My piece. Now hot guys who want a threesome with me..... holla at me.....pmsl :)
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RHP User
17 years ago
Highly recommend you visit CI. You will feel very comfortable and safe. There is never any guarantee that you will meet someone you find attractive enough to want to have sex with (or them you, but I am sure you will) but you will enjoy the open minded and social environment. Think of CI as a normal nightclub with a naughty side if you want to partake. You do not have to partake in any manner should you not feel inclined. X
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RHP User
17 years ago
I am fairly new to the swingers club side of rhp and I know my hesitation has been due to the small numbers of single guys allowed to attend. I am not Bi or even the slightest bit curious so the thought of going to a club where I may be sized up as a potential 3rd person for a married couple doesnt appeal. I have been to a couple of the clubs here in Perth and have had some great times from a social aspect. I have usually gone with friends in a group and while one or two may disappear for some fun, the majority of us see the club as an adult, grown up club. The only times I have played have been with the guy I went to the club with, and again we went predominantly for the social aspects. With regards to costs....I must admit I think it is a bit steep for single guys. As I usually go as part of a couple then I pay my share anyway....but would not be adverse to some cost as a single female, assuming it wasnt too exorbitant.....after all, the idea of being in a well kept, clean establishment with condoms and lube supplied is a plus. Would only be prepared to pay and go as a single female if I knew there were going to be single guys for me to play with if there was an urge... I have yet to come across any unsavoury characters in the clubs. In fact the couple of times I have gone where they have allowed extra single guys, they tend to sit along the wall wary about approaching anyone at all. Maybe a thought could be for there to be a "singles" night occasionally...male and female....same costs for both.....as opposed to the couple nights....cater for those girls who dont necessarily like married guys but like the idea of more than one guy.......or the guys who like a couple of girls for fun....but not married ones......or then again maybe that is a discriminatory comment... Never going to please everyone, but pls....for us single non bi or curious girls...maybe allow a few extra guys in.....worst comes to worst no one plays but a good social night is had by all..... No problem with guys being vetted by the way.....clubs are a much safer place for us singles...guys and girls...so thanks to those who run them and provide a safe and discreet play venue. Just my thoughts... Lavagirl65 xoxox
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RHP User
17 years ago
Bryan and I have been thinking of doing a singles only night for a while. We are limited with time though, but we will give it a go and see how it works. We have posted the event today under Parties and events and the pricing is $30 for both male and female and invite after registration only. Males must have face pics and females too. Thanks so much for the feedback, if this is one way to assist single guys and gals we are happy to work the hours to achieve it. After all the market is there and we have the venue approved, so why not use it to the fullest capacity we can.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Really interesting responses here from all, so thanks for taking the time to respond. I won't reply individually but make general comments to some of the issues raised. 1- I definitely agree the act exists for far more important things than door prices at swingers clubs..my interpretation of the act may well be inaccurate, i read it literally and as we all know the law is rubbery at best. 2 - I take the point also that discrimination exists everywhere, for men and women, in many walks of life. I suppose my point or perception is that perhaps we dont' need to take it lightly or just accept is as 'the norm'. I don't apply that to the swingers club scenario but generally. I am far from a card carrying woman hating mysoginist, but the one thing I do rebel against is inequity, unfairness etc.. for better or worse that's a part of me that somtimes finds it hard to stay quiet :) again, general comment and not directing it at any swingers clubs. 3 - I am well aware of, and a big supporter of, provding safe environments for women and men to indulge their lifestyles regardless, as swinging involves intimacy, trust and a large degree of personal safety, I have no issue with the vetting of individuals of both sexes, as many of you have pointed out, it only takes one to spoil it for many. Thanks for all your responses so far, its been very,very interesting to hear the different opinions and perceptions, which I wouldnt' have known had I not 'asked'/ranted/or whatever you want to call it :) but it's helpful (as someone pointed out to me recently) to research these things... Personally (I think someone raised this above) I wouldn't be making a formal issue out of it under any act or for any reason. I like the club I've been to and the people who own it and go there. I'll go again if they'll have me :) And when I do I hope to find more of you single girls out there enjoying yourselves in a safe and supportive environment.. cheers, BG
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RHP User
17 years ago
Singles nights operate widely now, but they are in no way related to Swingers/Couples Parties – sex is just not an option. Plenty of Couples who like to play with Single Guys at Mixed Couples Parties/Gang Bangs take the view, or at least the husband holds the view that: “why should I pay to watch my wife being done by several guys?” Particularly when this can be so easily arranged on the net. Successful Gang Bangs succeed purely because couples don’t pay, the guys subsidise the event, and why not?? This is why mixed parties will always attract an older cohort than couples only parties. Once patrons of Couples Parties let in just one single guy, many couples just will not attend, or at least the younger couples won’t – twenties/early thirties, most of whom are all seeking the threesome with a girl thing. Get over it guys, Brisbane is a small town with very limited genuine swingers. Most single girls are not really into the scene either. However the supply of horny single guys is limitless. Call it dicriminatory if you like - but remember, you don't have to attend!
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RHP User
17 years ago
Your comment about once a single guy is let in the younger couples or couples wont attend, it certainly not the case here. Our average age of patrons is around the 20-35 year old mark. And we get a lot more single ladies here attending than we allow single guys. The more single guys we let in, ( selected ) the more single ladies and couples come. The scene is very big in Brisbane not small, so i am not sure where you have been looking.? Our venue is packed with young sexy couples and single ladies every weekend. Just keeping you up to date with the lifestyle and the changes that have happened here in Brisbane at least.
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RHP User
17 years ago
The question i asked my self when i was offered the choice to become a member: what is my motivation? to have sex? hardly that mostly was a consequence of me being a happy , involved, transforming individual - the result of becoming a member has changed my perspective. Dramatically. Paying any amount of money doesn't compare to what one can do, and that is to make the experience more about but discovering who you are. I confess when i entered the door, i just went with no expectations - the scene,the dynamics, revolved around the reason i was there : to expand my nature. 'getting some' was more of a side-effect not the poupose. The moment, i transformed into being myself, i forgot the amount i paid, because thats not why i was going, I was allowing myself to transform because of the environment - into a appealing gentleman, in some eyes. getting n just save money: some can coupling for the night, to cheapens the price, but i think to an extent cheapens the experience for other people as well as one's self. I did notice my self starting to *music* conform, not only to some club expectations but also patrons - it took me a few months of persistent attendance to consider membership, to come to think and feel every activity that i can do is a privilege , not a right, if/ when i attend i arrive with good intentions and aim to exit, my true self and not to disfigure another patrons experience. some clubs can give the impression that either the men that are visibly booked in , are the bait, or the free entry single females are the bait, If you are happy to be putting yourself on the line - to hook up, and use many other fishing references,( this can happen in a chat-room situation as well) you begin to feel like either sex is advertising them selves as the predator, or the prey. in fact, neither is true, men and women and couples who attend these clubs / websites are entitled to go for the hunt, go to be gathered, or just go because, wow, it's a scene, and it's dynamics are options, not certainties. Opinion is for the pessimists, the voyeurs and the participants, I've been all three... the fact is women attend men attend couples attend in a balance ratio - more or less.
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RHP User
17 years ago
But as plenty of people have pointed out, there are many times that men (or women) have to pay more. I have a clothing label, and women's tops cost me more than mens tops. When I sell them I sell them for the same price, because I think it's crap that women should have to pay more. I've (very) recently attended my first CI event. (and met Pharoah - hey dude!) CI is a very tightly run ship. I was honoured to be invited to the club, it really made me feel quite special. Bryan made me feel really comfortable, and Leesa was nice too. I think that only allowing a select few males is actually a really good idea. It's really hard to find couples that are interested in having a single guy join them. It's all about supply and demand. That said, I found it pretty daunting being a single guy there on my own. I spent more time chatting with the other single guys than anyone else because I just really wanted to have some friends at the club so I didn't look like a total loser. LOL! I'm a fairly smart guy. I know that most of the couples are there for other couples or single women. However, I'd really appreciate it if people could just get to know me as a person, and not what I can (or can't) offer in the upstairs area of CI. When I go to any club or social event I like to meet people. I'm not trying to get into everyone's pants I talk to. I really enjoy getting to know people. It's actually pretty rare that I find someone I want to have sex with. So please, don't treat us single guys as if we are just there for sex. We've been selected for a reason, and I'm pretty sure that includes the fact that we aren't sex obsessed scavengers. ;) Very good topic tho, got a lot of people thinking and discussing, which is always good.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Well how about that. We posted up a single only night and we have 9 single ladies and over 120 single guys??? I think that tells the tale. Can anyone suggest how to make this work!!! of course selecting the guys is the only way . Making the guys and gals pay prior is another, but still no one pays to book their spot yet? Wonder if there is really a market for the single nights! Cause our sleep really important..lol Feedback would be appreciated.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Couples International have decided that singles night will be cancelled if we dont get more interest from the ladies. I think this has proven all the above. We wont waste our time cleaning and working the venue for 9 single ladies and hundreds of single guys to go through and select sorry.
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RHP User
17 years ago
Ironically seeing it's in this thread and all I'd probably give the feedback that you need to make it that ladies only pay $10 and only member single members can attend and they pay the $50 standard price. I'm not gonna be a popular dude among the single guys... LOL!
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RHP User
17 years ago
We are cancelling the single only night at Couples International The event has listed over 21 ( 210)pages of single guys and about 10 single ladies profiles. Therefore we are not gonna waste our time selecting 10 -20 single guys out of about 200 as it is simply not worth it for us. Sorry people, until there is more lady interest in the event we wont hold one. Maybe next time and i hope that clears up the above thread. we sorta do know what we are doing with single guys and the lifestyle!!!
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RHP User
17 years ago
I think the sheer number of guys probably freaked out girls that were thinking of attending. It made it look a bit like your usual standards for selecting men weren't going to be put in place and it'd be a meat market full of guys that have no idea. Probably best to put an event up that only the women can express definite interest, and then work out from there how many men you need. I'm pretty sure your single male members could probably cover demand. How many did you expect by the way? I doubt you'd get anywhere near as much as a normal club night. Might be best to actually organise the event through CI site rather than RHP because then people know what you guys are all about. But yeah, as you pointed out. You guys know what you are doing! LOL! I'm pretty sure the bi night will cut down a LOT of guys that expressed interest. LOL!
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RHP User
17 years ago
You say it didnt look like we were gonna do our usual standards, cant see why you would say that, of course our usual standards for selecting men were gonna be put into place and that is why we cancelled. Too many single guys to go through for too little single ladies. It is about time consuming, we run another business and for this night to succeed, we would have to go through all the single guys, and then email and then wait for responses, and then hope that they turned up. You see if i book 20 guys i am lucky to have 8 turn up. That is the nature of the lifestyle. Not one person had prepaid to date, which was the only way to be able to confirm, so that to us says. NO WAY are we gonna loose sleep on a Thursday Night for no shows. If there are 10 ladies booked, i am lucky if 3 turn up. So not gonna happen, not gonna waste our precious time at this point in time. maybe in the new year.
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