M63
Ground rules for friends with benefits
December 16 2010
Comments
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RHP User
15 years ago
As you say you are communicating with them.. I think you are flogging a dead horse Obviously they are looking for more than what they originally tell you If it's not what you want (relationship) They will never hear you As the famous saying in here goes... NEXT!!!! xFunlovingx
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RHP User
15 years ago
I'd have thought you'd discuss this at the first meeting over coffee, along with the things of what you (and she or he) do and don't like sexually be it CIM or COF anal etc, etc, etc.best to find out and set the ground rules out first, and then feel comfortable.my 2c
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RHP User
15 years ago
if its not a comunication problem then your just picking the wrong women if your setting the ground rules right from the start and are very clear about what you want then your doing the right thing...its the women that are not listening i dont know your idea of wining and dining...my exes was taking me to KFC...so maybe they are thinking your actions are speaking louder thanyour words and thinking you want more but dont know how to put it out there dont stop with the wining and dining, dont stop taking the inititive some woman will love that.....you will come across the right girl you just have to keep looking...some of us would be very happy with some romance before going off to the bedroom goodluck roxxy
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RHP User
15 years ago
oh my, men like you still exsist?! your one of those rare wonderful men snowshoe , dont change the way you treat your lady friends , just because a few get the wrong idea , there are still women out there who like the whole seduction thing and the respect and friendship before the sex happens , i can never get my head around women who just like a quick jump in bed without getting to know the guy first , we have an open relationship and i would exspect my hubby to treat his lady friend with respect and to make her feel special , not just a quick jump ,,, just as i exspect the same from a man i would want to have as a fwb,s ,,,, hugs misty xxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
to me, you are the poster boy of clear communication and laying down the ground rules. and the thing with laying down the rules so clearly: a change in interpretation by the other person, after all of that, is really not cricket. starting with clear guidelines means continuing the same way, unless both parties have entered into another round of negotiations at everyone's agreement. having had the great pleasure of meeting you and having this conversation with you firsthand, i've got to say that it's the ultimate delight in a "friend with benefits" situation, to outline things so clearly at the start. it was impressive at the time, and it still is. simply because you CAN then go and do activities together... wine and dine... seduce in ways that work for you... in other words, things that may in other circumstances blur the lines and cause confusion... WITHOUT needing to overthink it or get confused. it's relaxing. and fun. you can spring the unexpected as you say, and it's simple seduction without angst or dramatic undertones getting in the way of a sexy good time. i don't think you're very old-fashioned, though. i think you're one of the most thoroughly modern men i've met here - because you CAN mix mateship with seduction. but i do sometimes wonder, as you do in your post, whether this thoroughly modern attitude is too rare to survive. particularly when you mention manners. i recently wrote in the girls' only area, something to the tune of: just because you are fuckbuddies (or friends with benefits, or whatever you've agreed upon), doesn't mean there isn't a place for common courtesy. too many people feel that, because you have a no-strings arrangement, it's okay or even preferable to be rude. my courtesy to others is often mistaken, i think, for something more - simply because i'm unable to ignore someone's message, disrespect someone's schedule or, as you say, turn up emptyhanded. i have had men confused by my "mixed messages" of saying no, but saying it nicely. i even went through a stage of trying to learn how to be as discourteous as everyone else – it felt icky, but at one stage i felt like a bunny boiler simply because i'd return messages straight away! so, sorry, but i AM going to say it's all about communication. but communication early. and clearly. and all the way through. there are always going to be questions where you're not on the same page - how often to meet or get in touch; what method to do so (phone, message, bongo drum)... it just comes down to differences in beliefs and instincts that have been ingrained in each of us ever since we were raised, entered the dating/sex game and were shaped by the experiences we've had there. and sometimes, all the communication in the world is not going to overcome that kind of longterm brainwashing. and by the way, i do reject the theory that differences and expectations are a gender thing. men want casual, women want love... blah blah blah. good communication bypasses that entire conversation. i’m looking for both, here. but a simple, clear talk at the beginning of our acquaintance made it easy to know which i’ll be enjoying with you ☺ very relaxing and pleasurable indeed!
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RHP User
15 years ago
This is really quite tricky and I am sure as the topic progresses I will be finding other things I wish to add. Your profile does state that you are looking for friends only but you need to keep reinforcing that idea. The majority of women on here are looking for permanent. It may not say so in thier profiles and they may say that they are fine with just friends....BUT....that is not the case. Many have come through emotional trauma in the breakdown of thier relationships, many have been treated with less that the respect that a woman deserves and feel a little battered and wounded inside. Then along you come, doing the right thing, being nice, friendly, all the things they want and it is a little like a salve....a balm. We women actually like all the romantic stuff and it makes us feel special. We dont want to know that you may be doing the same thing with four or five others. We are not really interested if you are going to go out with another next week and treat her the same. The fact is, you are here now and this may be our fourth playdate so in the way many of us think...it must mean that you like her. Most people become very good at sticking thier heads in the sand and ignoring what they dont want to see or hear. When it comes to sex, most (not all) women are going to get emotionally involved. Very few of us (me included) have difficulty keeping the emotions out of the relationship. Especially as time goes on and we become closer. It is not easy to step back into the friendship. Yes we care about our friends and this is just what you are showing. Dont stop being the romantic. It is lovely. Too many men on this site only contact the 'friend' when they want sex and ignore her the rest of the time. These are the guys that dont last very long with most of us. We dont want to feel used at all. Correct me if I a wrong, but I think you dont like to hurt these women and that is why you want to know what to do or say. I dont know if there is an answer here. Either you are the wonderful, friendly, romantic man you are showing yourself to be, treating your friends as friends instead of just fuck buddies and you hurt thier feelings eventually, or you become callous and uncaring and hurt them sooner, rather than later. It is possible to have the friends with benfits type of relationship. I know this because I have it myself with my friends. It is just not that easy for a woman to take the step back and look at things without the blinkers on. It is a matter of finding the difference between loving someone and being in love, lusting after someone and loving them. Dont change. Keep making those women feel special....because they are!
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RHP User
15 years ago
It may interest you to note that I have the same problem with some men. If I show I care, they think I am getting to attached and looking for more than friendship. Hey...I care about my friends and when I care...I show it. In many little and some not so little ways. I may bake brownies and send some to you, I may turn up when you are sick and make soup, tidy up a little or tackle that humongous ironing pile. That does not mean I want to move in next week...it just means I care!
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RHP User
15 years ago
ps in reply to Fiona's post - like you, i have no interest in keeping my emotions out of a friends with benefits relationship. fuckbuddy, yes. friend with or without benefits, no. it's just that the emotions are "fond" and "delighted". hey, in a longterm scenario, i might even bump it up to "affectionate". just as i'm not the kind of person to have friends outside of my sexual life whom i'm ambivalent about - just as you've well described, i enjoy caring :) it's nice to be free to give of yourself, with no subtext or advantage taken. also, Snowshoe, i'm not doing your ironing. don't listen to her.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Well said Fionabee. And you are so right about women wanting something permanent even when they don't state it in their profiles - but of course only with a few of the "right" men - not all. But I think it may be an age thing Snowshoe - you seem to feel that you have to bring something, or pay for something before you have sex with women so they dont feel cheap?? Snowshoe - you can take a women out, wine her and dine her, then fuck her stupid - and she can still feel cheap. All those trappings mean nothing in the end - it is how we are treated afterwards. In fact I will go further to say that it can be worse when you are wined and dined, fucked then ignored then if it was a straight out sexual thing with no trappings. At least you both are clear on the expectations then. Oh and I am not suggesting that you do that - just interesting that you feel that wining and dining someone makes a difference??? You feel you have to "pay" for sex. We were talking about the feminist movement in another thread - one of those outcomes is that women can have sex without all those trappings just because they enjoy it, like it, or want it and we don't feel like we have to play a "game" to get it. So do we act like men then?? Do we make men feel cheap when we do that. DO YOU FEEL CHEAP when they do it to you? Interesting thought that. I would state in your profile clearly that you like the "romance" of it all and that you enjoy the seduction but that you are only looking for FWB but not looking for a relationship - if that is what you want. You can't do more than that. The fact is if women see you on a continuing basis and you are taking them out all the time and doing "boyfriend" type activities it is hard for women not to fall for you. She is obviously attracted to you, she obviously likes you becuase she wouldn't continue to see you - so the lines are so easy to get blurred. The fact is gentlemen - a women continues to see you because she feels that their is potential there for a relationship. Although some women may shoot me down in flames here.... Because if I continue to see a guy, I must like him as a person, I must love the sex, I must enjoy spending time with him - sooo why wouldn't I want more of that - why can't things develop further? Well maybe.... Anyway maybe they are the smart ladies - they believe you when you say you don't want more so they cut and run before they get hurt or fall for you. Smart cookies........ xxx Meeka
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RHP User
15 years ago
The only time I have ever in my life successfully maintained a 'friends with benefits' relationship, was when I had several friends with benefits and they lived out of area. This was because I knew myself to be easily seduced by the romance and intimacy that could be offered...and it was my way of stalling any affectionate feelings. I tended to avoid committing to romantic dinners or anything that seemed like a "date" merely for the fact that it would seduce me, create intimacy...and ultimately, feelings. Eventually I got tired of holding back my feelings, bid farewell to my fwb's and opened myself to finding my mate :)
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RHP User
15 years ago
Another thing that I always wonder about too. If someone in a FWB situation decides that they want more or have fallen for the other person. Is it wrong for the other person to continue to see them even though they know that they will never want more than just a FWB situation?? I mean is it enough to obsolve them of all responsibility if you say no this is just a sex thing or FWB thing nothing more when you know the other person may be falling for you if you continue to see them??? I understand from friends that marrried men seem to understand this better than their single counterparts and often will not see women more than a handful of times or if they say they want more they cut things off straight away. I guess they have more to loose than singles. The reverse obviously also applies to women. What do you think? Do you have responsibiltilty to your FWB to stop seeing them once they have fallen for you? xxx Meeka
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RHP User
15 years ago
Meeka and Fionabee! Brilliantly put, both of you... Snowshoe: If you both know it is going to be a FWB relationship then you can put all sorts of things on the table at the start, how often you catch up, where you want to catch up eg: over a lovely dinner, are sleepovers involved, what is acceptable in terms of chatting inbetween catchups, exclusivity or non exclusivity. You can both throw ideas out until you have designed a situation that suits both of you perfectly. If you can't agree on important points in advance then it is quite likely you are not meant to be FWB's. If you don't feel comfortable raising the subject face to face then put it on your profile... Meeka: This, for me, would include the 'get out of jail card'. I want an FWB I can care about and who cares about me, but I'd discuss in advance that if deeper feelings were to come into the FWB relationship from one side only then it would need to end. The reason I would do this is because if I am the one who starts to fall in love, I'd want the word of my FWB, in advance, that they will release me gently, as I would do in the reverse situation.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'fionabee' It may interest you to note that I have the same problem with some men. If I show I care, they think I am getting to attached and looking for more than friendship. Hey...I care about my friends and when I care...I show it. In many little and some not so little ways. I may bake brownies and send some to you, I may turn up when you are sick and make soup, tidy up a little or tackle that humongous ironing pile. That does not mean I want to move in next week...it just means I care! Exactly! The crux of the problem is that what one person offers as a gesture by a friend, another may interpret as being motivated by a deeper meaning. A FWB is someone that we become friends with in a short period of time - after all, lying around talking after sex is a shortcut to very open communication. Without the history of years that we may have with other friends, it makes it harder to read each other.By the way, I agree with the points that you make in your first post, but would add that men get emotionally involved too. We would be conning women if we landed them and knew that they had feelings for us, but also knew we just wanted sex with no more. I don't think that men are that mercenary - most men want sex, but don't want to hurt anyone, I think.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100' Well said Fionabee. And you are so right about women wanting something permanent even when they don't state it in their profiles - but of course only with a few of the "right" men - not all. But I think it may be an age thing Snowshoe - you seem to feel that you have to bring something, or pay for something before you have sex with women so they dont feel cheap?? Snowshoe - you can take a women out, wine her and dine her, then fuck her stupid - and she can still feel cheap. All those trappings mean nothing in the end - it is how we are treated afterwards. In fact I will go further to say that it can be worse when you are wined and dined, fucked then ignored then if it was a straight out sexual thing with no trappings. I really don't feel that I need to pay for sex at all - although I can see how you concluded that, I couldn't wait to address it as it makes me quite uncomfortable. It's more the way fiona described it - where you may do something for someone because you're friends. I'm also very mindful of making sure that a woman feels that I have respect for her - it's far more that than saving her the money for a nice meal. As for that afterwards thing, a one-off wouldn't be a FWB situation, though I agree that it would be easy to make a woman feel cheap under those circumstances.
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RHP User
15 years ago
This is starting to look like a thread that I started to tell everyone what a swell guy I am, but that's not the case at all. Maybe it would be best if we left me out of it more and talked more in general terms? Otherwise, I'll get such a big head that I'll need a new profile picture to fit it in...
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100' Another thing that I always wonder about too. If someone in a FWB situation decides that they want more or have fallen for the other person. Is it wrong for the other person to continue to see them even though they know that they will never want more than just a FWB situation?? I mean is it enough to obsolve them of all responsibility if you say no this is just a sex thing or FWB thing nothing more when you know the other person may be falling for you if you continue to see them??? I think that's an important part of the same question. It comes down to how you balance the "friends" part with the "benefits" part. If it really is a proper friendship, certainly we owe it to each other not to let it develop in such a way that either or both may get hurt. If it's more about sex, there would be a tendency to "get while the getting is good". A hastily-constructed friendship is always going to be vulnerable to misinterpretation.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Yes we do become friends much faster in this situation than those normal everyday ways. Sex is a great leveler and lying around fully satisfied does bring you closer together. Personallly I like the friendship part. I like the caring that comes with getting to know one another, I do not like the one off situation. It makes me feel cheap and used. I do not want a permanent relationship but I am like you Snowshoe...I am happy with permanent or semi permanent friends with benefits. I like that my friends keep in touch on a regular basis. The only thing you can do is keep on telling them the way it is and if it looks as if they are getting too attached, let them down gently.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Snowshoe - I wasn't saying that you pay for sex as such. It just sounded as if you felt you had to make some sort of exchange for sex, anyway I understand what you mean a little better now. It can be a very hard situation - and I admit that I am one of the fuck and run variety of girls - in fact I can fuck and run on a guy for up to a year without getting to know them that well at all. Yes that is terrible sometimes I look back on the way I have behaved and I feel sorry becuase the guy was so nice and lovely and would have made an awesome friend. It takes me a looong time to feel totally comfortable with someone. I think I may have intimacy issues?? I actually feel uncomfortable with the whole wining and dining thing - too much like a date to me. Well I am assuming you are talking about a nice restuartant maybe even candle light. Just a casual night out is different. And I don't understand the whole just because I sleep with someone a few times I am supposed to tell them all my most intimate and personal thoughts or everything about myself. I am intensley private person most of the time. xxxx Meeka
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RHP User
15 years ago
What do you mean - you wait for coffee before you ask them if they like it up the arse??? HAHAHA - by the way what is CIM, COF??? Quoting '420perth'I'd have thought you'd discuss this at the first meeting over coffee, along with the things of what you (and she or he) do and don't like sexually be it CIM or COF anal etc, etc, etc.best to find out and set the ground rules out first, and then feel comfortable.my 2c
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RHP User
15 years ago
I differ there. I have a friend in Sydney that I see each time I am down that way. He takes me out to nice restaurants, yes it is like a date. He holds my hand when we walk down the street and he holds my hand across the table. He also takes me for breakfast the next morning before he heads back to the office. We contact each other via email and occassionally phone meanwhile. This man is incredibly sweet but we each know where the other one stands. It will never be more than friends with benefits and we are both happy with that. He is also looking for Ms Right meanwhile we have fun.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'fionabee' I differ there. I have a friend in Sydney that I see each time I am down that way. He takes me out to nice restaurants, yes it is like a date. He holds my hand when we walk down the street and he holds my hand across the table. He also takes me for breakfast the next morning before he heads back to the office. We contact each other via email and occassionally phone meanwhile. This man is incredibly sweet but we each know where the other one stands. It will never be more than friends with benefits and we are both happy with that. He is also looking for Ms Right meanwhile we have fun. Isn't it a little like you are settling for mediocre until the right one comes a long? I understand the whole FWB thing - but I still get stuck when the guy wants so much intimacy as well. The hugging all night, telling each other everything.. maybe I just confused because for me to open up to someone like that means that I have let them into my heart - even if it just a little. A girlfriend once told me that I was one of the only girls she knew that didn't confuse sex and love. Which is partly true - I can have sex with men and never become emotionally involved at all. But it means that I don't let them in at all either.... I don't know - this is starting to sound like 3 am speak...... LOL.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Nope. He is my friend first and foremost. We are both adult enough to know that a romantic liason between the two of us would never work out. But we do enjoy each others company and as adults we both like sex. While he is looking for Ms Right, we have fun togtehr occassionally and I would like to think that if he finds the woman he is looking for then we can still, on some level, be friends. Yes there is a difference between sex and love. There is also a difference between caring deeply and loving your friends to being in love. I do care for my friends and I am quite capable of loving my friends. I just know that they are not the one for me, permanently. Does not mean I am settling for second best at all.
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RHP User
15 years ago
I have to think about that one.......... Yes I know there is difference between being in love and loving your friends. And I understand that you have FWB that you care about but know that they are not for you permanently. I still find the wining and dining thing all too inimate - which most of my friends would tell me is completely nuts - going out to dinner with someone is too intimate yet I can have sex with them. I rarely if ever sleep at anyones house. Shit I even confuse myself. And I think I am a caring and loving person. Not sure what I am trying to say anymore, Maybe someone else would like to add their input.
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RHP User
15 years ago
I think many posters have said many good things about this, and I'm not sure I can add much, but I'll give it a try.I do think that sometimes women want more than they admit, especially on a site like this where the mere whiff of wanting a relationship can send a man running a mile. I generalise, of course.I also think that even if women don't want more, or don't think they want more, they can sometimes be seduced by romance and chivalry. Personally, I think this is a good thing, but lines can get blurred and then things can get tricky.I had a FWB once, a little younger than me. I really wanted to spend some time with him outside of the bedroom - movies, dinner, stroll at the beach now and then. He just wasn't willing, or interested. Possibly because he truly only wanted sex, or possibly because he thought if he gave me an inch I'd take a mile. He would have been wrong, but I kind of understood where he was coming from.Shame though. I think chivalry and a little romance can go perfectly hand in hand with a FWB arrangement, as long as it's all clear and agreed between the parties.Personally, I really struggle with the cold and impersonal nature of sex without some kind of connection (not commitment, just connection).Still ... tricky tricky territory ...lilmiss xxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'MsValkyrie' having had the great pleasure of meeting you and having this conversation with you firsthand, i've got to say that it's the ultimate delight in a "friend with benefits" situation, to outline things so clearly at the start. it was impressive at the time, and it still is. simply because you CAN then go and do activities together... wine and dine... seduce in ways that work for you... in other words, things that may in other circumstances blur the lines and cause confusion... WITHOUT needing to overthink it or get confused. it's relaxing. and fun. you can spring the unexpected as you say, and it's simple seduction without angst or dramatic undertones getting in the way of a sexy good time. As much as I'd enjoy taking credit, none of that stuff works unless both people know the score. As if there was ever any doubt, the lovely MsValkyrie is the consummate success story - a complete contrast to my confusing scenarios. She absolutely understood the game from the outset, making for a really lovely and relaxed friendship. At the risk of making her blush, the benefits are also... well, we don't kiss and tell here, do we...The fact that FWB does work sometimes leaves me in no doubt that given the right approach, we should be able to minimise the confusion - the question is how?
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RHP User
15 years ago
Hi Meekawhat I meant was, at the first meeting when you see if you're both "happy to be friends with benefits" generally when you meet for coffee and a chat.. before you jump in the sack..It's easier to set out any do's and don't's before the bedroom action starts..CIM = Cum in Mouth, COF = Cum on FaceCheersQuoting 'Meeka100' What do you mean - you wait for coffee before you ask them if they like it up the arse??? HAHAHA - by the way what is CIM, COF??? Quoting '420perth'I'd have thought you'd discuss this at the first meeting over coffee, along with the things of what you (and she or he) do and don't like sexually be it CIM or COF anal etc, etc, etc.best to find out and set the ground rules out first, and then feel comfortable.my 2c
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RHP User
15 years ago
People get divorced despite til death us do part,,why do you feel a fwb will last forever,,,maybe they r just moving on? Surely if yr just fucking (oh and dining) each other u move on if you find some thing more appealing or of more interest? yes no?
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100' If someone in a FWB situation decides that they want more or have fallen for the other person. Is it wrong for the other person to continue to see them even though they know that they will never want more than just a FWB situation?? Yes it is wrong to keep seeing them in my opinion.... Ages ago, when I had a few FWB, we had certain agreements, one of them being if overly-romantic feelings cropped up (that were getting in the way of the agreement) the hook-ups had to stop. We would talk it over, and be sensitive to the other's feelings, but it was clear-cut and it was either take a break for a while or stop altogether. It wasn't a case of 'absolving' anyone or anything, just a discussion about how things could realistically continue. I am glad to report that there were no hard feelings or any real fall-out...perhaps I am lucky??? I cared about and respected all of them. Still do, wherever they may be now :)
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RHP User
15 years ago
I am one of those lucky ladies who has a friend with benefit similar to you snowshoe. I am sure it does have something to do with being older and more experienced. Don't stop doing things the way you are as they do work with the right woman as my fwb would tell you. Hillz
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Gourmet_Lady' People get divorced despite til death us do part,,why do you feel a fwb will last forever,,,maybe they r just moving on? Surely if yr just fucking (oh and dining) each other u move on if you find some thing more appealing or of more interest? yes no? True, but if it's just fucking and dining, I'd classify it more as "casual" than "FWB". To me, FWB means being willing to do the friends part too, like hit the beach and discuss books that we may have in common. It's like getting into each others pants through each others personality - quite different and very fun. If it was really FWB, I'd hope the communication was good enough that if one wanted to move on, they'd say so.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Snowshoe' Quoting 'Gourmet_Lady' If it was really FWB, I'd hope the communication was good enough that if one wanted to move on, they'd say so. I would agree with that 100%, its just so nice and polite to let people know you have changed yr mind and want greener pastures xxxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Snowshoe' Quoting 'Gourmet_Lady' People get divorced despite til death us do part,,why do you feel a fwb will last forever,,,maybe they r just moving on? Surely if yr just fucking (oh and dining) each other u move on if you find some thing more appealing or of more interest? yes no? True, but if it's just fucking and dining, I'd classify it more as "casual" than "FWB". To me, FWB means being willing to do the friends part too, like hit the beach and discuss books that we may have in common. It's like getting into each others pants through each others personality - quite different and very fun. If it was really FWB, I'd hope the communication was good enough that if one wanted to move on, they'd say so. Hey Snowshoe - So how often would you see an FWB in your scenario above? Seems to me you may as well say that she is your girlfriend. What is the difference? Is your FWB really a girlfriend but someone you don't have to stay faithful too or you have an open relationship? Do you prefer this scenario because you are stating it will not lead to something permanent or will not lead to marriage? I don't know the lines seem to be blurry already to me. From what you have written above. xx Meeka
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100' Quoting 'Snowshoe' Quoting 'Gourmet_Lady' People get divorced despite til death us do part,,why do you feel a fwb will last forever,,,maybe they r just moving on? Surely if yr just fucking (oh and dining) each other u move on if you find some thing more appealing or of more interest? yes no? True, but if it's just fucking and dining, I'd classify it more as "casual" than "FWB". To me, FWB means being willing to do the friends part too, like hit the beach and discuss books that we may have in common. It's like getting into each others pants through each others personality - quite different and very fun. If it was really FWB, I'd hope the communication was good enough that if one wanted to move on, they'd say so. Hey Snowshoe - So how often would you see an FWB in your scenario above? Seems to me you may as well say that she is your girlfriend. What is the difference? Is your FWB really a girlfriend but someone you don't have to stay faithful too or you have an open relationship? Do you prefer this scenario because you are stating it will not lead to something permanent or will not lead to marriage? I don't know the lines seem to be blurry already to me. From what you have written above. xx Meeka naw - that's easy. the difference is no romantic involvement/entanglement. no "I love you"s, but plenty of high-fives :) to me, this truly is a FRIEND (like my other friends - we go to the beach, to lunch, hit the vino, talk books and movies, play poker!)... but WITH BENEFITS (pants privileges). but i do agree, without very clear lines drawn up at the start, it would feel blurry. as it is, it doesn't.
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RHP User
15 years ago
I spend time with my female friends. I chat to them often, call in, do things with and for them and I dont expect to marry them Snowshoe...you can wine and dine me anyday sweetie.....and I promise not to rearrange your kitchen cupboards for you.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'MsValkyrie'naw - that's easy. the difference is no romantic involvement/entanglement. no "I love you"s, but plenty of high-fives :) to me, this truly is a FRIEND (like my other friends - we go to the beach, to lunch, hit the vino, talk books and movies, play poker!)... but WITH BENEFITS (pants privileges). but i do agree, without very clear lines drawn up at the start, it would feel blurry. as it is, it doesn't. I don't know whether I'd die of laughter, or be dumbstruck if I had sex and then we 'high fived' after. I mean, maybe you can high five another bloke over the ladies back, but... I dunno.... ;-)
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RHP User
15 years ago
i was kind of being metaphorical. it's more of a thumbs up. although i'd love to take part in an MMF where there's high fives all round :D
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RHP User
15 years ago
I had a very close friend, she helped me get through the worst time in my life when my marriage fell apart. Months later, both with our eyes wide open, knowing and having discussed the whole "Friends with Benefits" deal, where the boundaries were, what we both wanted, we ended up in bed reasonably regularly. I had fun, she had fun. She became one of the best playmates in the bedroom that I have ever had. Somewhere along the line things got confused and our communication broke down I guess. I am not sure either of us or perhaps we were both to blame. I am still not sure exactly what happened, my best guess is that either she developed some feeling or she thought I had. An instant break was taken, without much talk of why. At some point the communication broke down. This is an oversimplified version of what happened between the two of us, but I guess the lesson for me was that communication is really the key, especially if things are changing for one or both of the friends involved. It also made me look up "shit happens" to try and find the origin of that saying, no luck there though. All we can really do is try to keep up the communication and be honest, but even then sometimes things can go pearshaped. Now I miss my playmate and infinitely more than that I miss one of my best friends, but that never means you have to give up.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Friendship has no real definition. I have friends that I don't see for ages, I have friends that I see regularly. I have friends that I keep secrets from, and those that know it all. I have friends where we only do certain things, like surfing, bike riding, dinner, or drinking buddies. I even have friends that have wronged me. I have friends that I have sex with. Some only once or twice a year or so, some every month or more, and some just heavy flirtation. Friends where desire is strong but circumstance does not allow intimacy or required a halt of it. Friendship comes naturally and involves respect and empathy. Possessiveness and jealousy will only serve to destroy friendship. I will judge friends and at times even give them a lecture, but expect the same in return if I'm being a dick. Friends with benefits is such a silly phrase. All friends have benefits, or why bother. We would just call them associates. Thus to SnowShow "How do we establish the ground rules for a friends with benefits relationship? " You can't. Apart from respect and empathy, which should reside in you and not be an agreement (ground rule), you should do nothing more then enjoy the company, communication, intimacy and not pout over a friend moving on. BTW I love all my friends.
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RHP User
15 years ago
It’s like we are struck from the same steel bud. I totally get where you are coming from and completely agree with everything you have said... I have unfortunately never had an ongoing fwb relationship so I can only speculate, but this is how I would imagine it... I would anticipate that we are friends before the sex. I’m a caring person. I like to be involved in the lives of my friends and to see areas where I can offer help or add to their general experience of how good life can be that doesn’t really change for me if I consider a fwb relationship that is something that lasts etc... I guess the ground rule I would make clear is that the sex is an extension of my friendship and a fun aspect of how we might interact but that’s all it is... it means that I’m so comfortable in our friendship that I’m excited and interested to take it that step further on a playful and physical level but I will still see you as a friend... I have friends that I regularly take for a nice dinner, or that I lend my car to... or that I go for a surf with... the majority of them I’m not sexually attracted to in any way... if I had a sexual attraction to any of them as well as the friendship.. and they felt the same then I don’t see why that shouldn’t be explored and added to the friendship in that way. if I was meeting someone specifically for sex I would hope that we could at least be friends, if not reasonably good friends for the same reason... I’m just that type of guy... I like being friendly... I’m not going to manipulate my character and truncate my personality just for sex... I think both can exist. I’m mature and open enough (honest enough?) to admit to myself if I see love coming and raise it or remind myself of the reasons I think it might not be a good idea to let those feelings develop.. I know to ask if I’m not sure about my friends feelings too... I’m ok with those discussions and if the feeling isn’t mutual I’d rather talk about it and deal with the little bit of hurt that might take place for either person rather than pretend things are ok or make assumptions about how things are going.. Communication is an important thing but it’s really the tool of self awareness. All you can do is be explicit and sure in how you communicate so that people understand what you’re feeling and what you’re not. Self awareness is the first step of delivering such a message.. its the content of what you are trying to express. Without a clear understanding of the content any message is hard to deliver. I would do it something like this: I might be misreading things but I just want to be clear about something so that you don’t misinterpret what’s happening here and with me. Please understand that I enjoy the experience of a good meal... I like to share that... it gives me gratification to be able to extend and share that to you. For us to enjoy that is its own reward in that sense. In the same breath its separate from any wants or needsI may have or that you might think I have beyond just enjoying a meal with you... In my experience of delivering such a message invariably starts a series of questions and answers that ultimately end up clearing the air as long as both parties are ok with being honest and dont have preconceived ideas about waht they can and cant say (and you learn a lot about a person in how they respond to such an interaction) Im not sure how I missed the initial posting of this topic! Its a good one!LS
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'MsValkyrie' i was kind of being metaphorical. it's more of a thumbs up. although i'd love to take part in an MMF where there's high fives all round :D youre hilarious MsVThanks for the chuckles :DLS
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RHP User
15 years ago
FWB applications are being recieved and reviewed via my profile!No reasonable offers declined!Submit yours now!!:DLS
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100'We were talking about the feminist movement in another thread - one of those outcomes is that women can have sex without all those trappings just because they enjoy it, like it, or want it and we don't feel like we have to play a "game" to get it. So do we act like men then?? Do we make men feel cheap when we do that. DO YOU FEEL CHEAP when they do it to you? Interesting thought that. Im not sure about cheap... but used or taken advantage of... yep... ouch!Ohhhhh meeka..... you have just given me a can of worms AND the can opener... and Im deadly with a can opener :PFeminisim's greatest potential flaw is this: By women trying to achieve success and recognition in the same ways that they perceived men to be successful (when the feminist movement started) they have subjected themselves to achieving the same flawed stereotype of what a man (success) is. I would argue that men as a whole arent happy (have a look at young male suicide rates)... by chasing the life men once had and the halmarks of success it entails women are potentially going to end up unhappy too. Its a mistake to pursue something that isnt a good idea to begin with.LS
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RHP User
15 years ago
Honestly LeoSteve..you really only have to say to prospective fwb's...."I don't want to be your boyfriend, but if you'll let me, I'd like to fuck you from time to time, because you are my friend and I am sexually attracted to you". No emotion involved...just straight up, sayin it how it is ;p
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'LeoSteve' It’s like we are struck from the same steel bud... if I was meeting someone specifically for sex I would hope that we could at least be friends, if not reasonably good friends for the same reason... I’m just that type of guy... I like being friendly... I’m not going to manipulate my character and truncate my personality just for sex... I think both can exist. I’m mature and open enough (honest enough?) to admit to myself if I see love coming and raise it or remind myself of the reasons I think it might not be a good idea to let those feelings develop.. I know to ask if I’m not sure about my friends feelings too... I’m ok with those discussions and if the feeling isn’t mutual I’d rather talk about it and deal with the little bit of hurt that might take place for either person rather than pretend things are ok or make assumptions about how things are going..I would do it something like this: I might be misreading things but I just want to be clear about something so that you don’t misinterpret what’s happening here and with me. Please understand that I enjoy the experience of a good meal... I like to share that... it gives me gratification to be able to extend and share that to you. For us to enjoy that is its own reward in that sense. In the same breath its separate from any wants or needsI may have or that you might think I have beyond just enjoying a meal with you...I completely agree with what I left of your first paragraph - we are a lot alike. I'm not sure whether I should be pleased that I was struck from that steel 16-odd years before you, or disappointed that you have an admirable handle on this stuff 16-odd years ahead of me... Your second paragraph is spot-on as well. The difficulty is in enjoying the friendship and allowing yourself to get swept up in the ensuing sex, but keeping a proper perspective on things. It's a bit like a swirling vortex where both want to be close to the middle, but not so close that they can't get back to the edge. If both drop in, it's fine - it's the start of a loving RHP relationship, of which I'm sure there are many. If one drops in though, the other has no choice but to abandon them and make for the edge alone, as there's no saving anyone who has dropped in. One only risks one's own safety by trying.As for the third paragraph... dude, if you trot out the whole disclaimer every time you do something nice, she'll dump you for someone more spontaneous... like Mr. Spock from Star Trek. Imagine telling your poker friend "mate, I've really enjoyed rebuilding the carby for the HQ and I respect you as a player, but I'm still going to try to wipe out your stack at the game on Monday..."You clearly understand the problem though, as do several other recent posters. I'm at my parents' place at the moment, so have limited opportunity to answer some very interesting points that have been raised.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'justforfunisall' I had a very close friend, she helped me get through the worst time in my life when my marriage fell apart. Months later, both with our eyes wide open, knowing and having discussed the whole "Friends with Benefits" deal, where the boundaries were, what we both wanted, we ended up in bed reasonably regularly. I had fun, she had fun. She became one of the best playmates in the bedroom that I have ever had. Somewhere along the line things got confused and our communication broke down I guess. I am not sure either of us or perhaps we were both to blame. I am still not sure exactly what happened, my best guess is that either she developed some feeling or she thought I had. An instant break was taken, without much talk of why.That's the sad part - neither of you even fully understand why you stopped. Even if it is as Meeka suggests, just one of you moving on - it's still deeply unsatisfying to have something end and not know the reason for it. It would be easier if she told you that you were a dud root than to just walk away without a word, right?I think you were playing with fire as you had a deep emotional connection from the outset, but I feel for you anyway. It's very difficult when you don't even know how you're supposed to feel when it ends.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Markusss67' Friends with benefits is such a silly phrase. All friends have benefits, or why bother. We would just call them associates. Thus to SnowShow "How do we establish the ground rules for a friends with benefits relationship? " You can't. Apart from respect and empathy, which should reside in you and not be an agreement (ground rule), you should do nothing more then enjoy the company, communication, intimacy and not pout over a friend moving on. BTW I love all my friends. "Friends with benefits" is a term like "drinking buddy". I agree completely with your principles, but I don't pout over friends moving on, though I do lament the fact that I sometimes lose them for reasons that I'm pretty sure neither of us understand. By the sounds of it, this was the case justforfunisall - and it's pretty poor circumstances for a friendship to end in. The purpose of this thread is to see if there's some way to prevent that from happening.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Morticiaaa' Honestly LeoSteve..you really only have to say to prospective fwb's...."I don't want to be your boyfriend, but if you'll let me, I'd like to fuck you from time to time, because you are my friend and I am sexually attracted to you". No emotion involved...just straight up, sayin it how it is ;p To me, that sounds more like a casual sex relationship rather than FWB. Being friends does involve a degree of emotion, and it's that emotion that makes the sex hotter than something... less personal I suppose? Besides, where does seduction come into this, and those games that people play between each other because they have trust, or even someone to tell that you had a shitty day?
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RHP User
15 years ago
Friends = a mutual understanding of the realtionship and both parties enjoying sharing each others company Benefits = must be great for both parties... remember is not called FWMB (friends with mediocre benefits!) LOL!its simple really.... do we worry as much about our platonic friendships as much as we do FWB?? I doubt it!! Relax, have fun, and work things out as you go - thats what friends do! ;)
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Morticiaaa' Honestly LeoSteve..you really only have to say to prospective fwb's...."I don't want to be your boyfriend, but if you'll let me, I'd like to fuck you from time to time, because you are my friend and I am sexually attracted to you". No emotion involved...just straight up, sayin it how it is ;p I was thinking more along the lines of someone who thinks thats what you want but all you really intend is to hang out and have a meal.. clearing the air around that so that they dont need to feel like youre expecting more from them:)LS
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'LeoSteve' Quoting 'Meeka100'We were talking about the feminist movement in another thread - one of those outcomes is that women can have sex without all those trappings just because they enjoy it, like it, or want it and we don't feel like we have to play a "game" to get it. So do we act like men then?? Do we make men feel cheap when we do that. DO YOU FEEL CHEAP when they do it to you? Interesting thought that. Im not sure about cheap... but used or taken advantage of... yep... ouch!Ohhhhh meeka..... you have just given me a can of worms AND the can opener... and Im deadly with a can opener :PFeminisim's greatest potential flaw is this: By women trying to achieve success and recognition in the same ways that they perceived men to be successful (when the feminist movement started) they have subjected themselves to achieving the same flawed stereotype of what a man (success) is. I would argue that men as a whole arent happy (have a look at young male suicide rates)... by chasing the life men once had and the halmarks of success it entails women are potentially going to end up unhappy too. Its a mistake to pursue something that isnt a good idea to begin with.LS LeoSteve, completely agree with you there. I also think women tried to emulate men in order to achieve success. Now we are left with all the "traditional" women roles plus the male role as well and left wondering why did we want this again ? I probably should have said the sexual revolution of 60's & 70's? But that was a genuine question though on my part.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Hmmmm, What I guess I was meaning to say was that communication in a friends with benefits situation needs to be ongoing and remain clear just like in any other relationship with others, be it FWB, friends or at work. I guess the post could be taken as a bit of a whinge or depressing a little but I just meant to illustrate that point. In that situation the communication broke down with some unpleasant consequences for us both. At least that's the lesson I walked away from it having learned. Not to take for granted that "it's all good" or that things will continue without any change in feelings or circumstances but to be aware that things may change at some pointand to continue to be clear. Not too much though! That would spoil the FWB thing, constantly talking about it. I seem to have the mix roughly right at the moment but I guess it was somewhat a cautionary tale to illustrate a point. Friends with benefits are one of life's little joy's, as are all my friendships, those with and without that particular benefit.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Snowshoe' Quoting 'Morticiaaa' Honestly LeoSteve..you really only have to say to prospective fwb's...."I don't want to be your boyfriend, but if you'll let me, I'd like to fuck you from time to time, because you are my friend and I am sexually attracted to you". No emotion involved...just straight up, sayin it how it is ;p To me, that sounds more like a casual sex relationship rather than FWB. Being friends does involve a degree of emotion, and it's that emotion that makes the sex hotter than something... less personal I suppose? Besides, where does seduction come into this, and those games that people play between each other because they have trust, or even someone to tell that you had a shitty day? I see your point. You heard that sentence as a casual sex relationship...I heard it as ground rules for a friends with benefits relationship. What that sentence tells me, is how much emotional investment is required (from me) for the friendship to develop. It's the business before pleasure stuff. Too often the seduction happens before the ground rules have been established. Hell, thats not right...what am I saying here! Attraction and seduction is meant to happen before rules are put in place. So I guess it's not the 'rules discussion' that is as important as the timing of that discussion. Personally, I preferred the "expectations" discussion up front...that way I could decide the amount of investment I made in my friend. And in each friend, I made a different emotional investment. It was good but it was seasonal. And like every relationship (broadly speaking), one size does not fit all. Cheers :)
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'justforfunisall' Hmmmm, What I guess I was meaning to say was that communication in a friends with benefits situation needs to be ongoing and remain clear just like in any other relationship with others, be it FWB, friends or at work. I guess the post could be taken as a bit of a whinge or depressing a little but I just meant to illustrate that point. In that situation the communication broke down with some unpleasant consequences for us both. At least that's the lesson I walked away from it having learned.That's very much like my experiences, except without the complication of the prior relationship. I was pleased to hear that I'm not the only one who has encountered that sort of thing... pleased for my sake, not for your confusion of course.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Morticiaaa'I see your point. You heard that sentence as a casual sex relationship...I heard it as ground rules for a friends with benefits relationship. What that sentence tells me, is how much emotional investment is required (from me) for the friendship to develop. It's the business before pleasure stuff. Too often the seduction happens before the ground rules have been established. Hell, thats not right...what am I saying here! Attraction and seduction is meant to happen before rules are put in place.I laughed out loud when I read that! That's exactly the problem - a woman often wants to be seduced into a FWB relationship. Then presumably, we have to change tack and get all the admin stuff out of the way, then return to the fun and games. That shifting of gears, hopefully synchronised, is tricky and even once it has all been negotiated, the circumstances are prone to change with the passing of time.So come on people! How do we fix it?
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RHP User
15 years ago
I've read a number of quite detailed comments in this thread. My view is that it's all about honesty. Just be yourself and be flexible about expectations. If there is no further commitment beyond FWB it's the only way to go
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RHP User
15 years ago
You've had me mulling over this. Charm, manners and respect are imperatives but also can appear dishonest if they are not executed with thought. I don't think any self respecting woman wants to be treated poorly and most are more broad minded and accepting than gentlemen expect. There is always going to be that risk if you deliver a bit too much charm, that a girl will not be able to resist and won't be able to help "falling" for you. You can be charming and funny without getting too personal. The ladies who have cooled things off may not have been looking for something deeper initially but you may have unwittingly delivered a "package" that struck a chord with them. For all the talk of not wanting relationships, it is surprising how many develop from these situations and just as many men have been hurt by a "cold hearted" woman who didn't reciprocate their feelings. To attempt to persist with something when the other person is becoming attached is bordering on selfish as there appears to be a disregard for the hurt the other person is experiencing. Perhaps the best way to think of it is as a compliment in that you are so very lovely that these ladies couldn't resist you. Let them move on, don't persist or revisit, you will only cause them pain. For the future be very frank about what you are seeking and keep reminding them. Whilst you may think that the ground rules have been laid out, things change and feelings can develop despite the best efforts. Perhaps talk openly about other ladies you are seeing or have met as a reminder that you don't want to be "the one" and don't be hurt if at some time things must come to an end because feelings have developed. It is part of the journey. Be careful, respectful and accepting because there is always that chance that you might meet someone you develop feelings for and the last thing you will want is for them to hurt you by not reciprocating the sentiments. To answer your most recent question, there is no fix. You are dealing with human beings who are prone to change and the reality is that a long term FWB situation is virtually impossible. Enjoy it while it is good, be concious of what the other person is displaying in their feelings, make the cut before things get heavy and then move on and don't look back.
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RHP User
15 years ago
What i hear you ask? Well it's funny how life just doesn't neatly fit into a box isn't it? Personally if I had a FWB relationship that turned into more,I would consider us both winners..What are we running from here?I see FWB as people helping each other out where there is a bigger picture involved-maybe a distance thing,in a committed relationship but sexually needy,job seperation,even relationship problems (but that is a minefield)-any number of scenarios.Some will have a lifespan greater and more intense than others,but it is the original situation that determines the outcome really.That is the real meaning of 'original sin'-any scenario is only as good as the original reason it is given life. And we are talking sexual expression here,where the mind becomes secondary/submissive to the body and the emotional and physical-the real eason we incarnate in this realm..Think about it,the mind trying to control and compartmentalise the experience. Good luck with that And as for communication,there is mo-much more than what is being said or written-there is as much by what is not said ,a pause,a flushing of the skin,the way a body moves or not,whether a person matches or mirrors another and a thousand other cues.When one learns to see enough and learn,one does not get caught in confusion and emotional distress.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Interesting topic…and I have had similar issues arise from time to time after meeting people here, or elsewhere for that matter. I think maybe the real issue is intent and intention, how we may interpret what the other person is doing, thinking or feeling…and “there’s the rub” to borrow a few words from Hamlet’s soliloquy, someone who talked almost as much as I do. | I am here to meet people, make friends…and amongst those, people who share similar lifestyle choices and enjoy all things sensual and sexual. I don’t really see this as a traditional dating site where the expected outcome is a relationship founded in true romantic love…although I never say never as life is far too unpredictable. It could indeed happen that way. So what is a friend? | For me…that means I like you, maybe quite a lot depending on the level and depth of the friendship as even those may have many layers. I have “friends” that really are nothing more than acquaintances. We may meet, have a drink and on a rare occasions, may also play together. Although for me, that’s not what I really am expecting or intending…perhaps just caught in the moment if that happens. That’s a bit shallow for me and I prefer a much different kind of friend...and especially one with benefits. | On the good side of “friends”…I have those that I am very committed to and do care for a great deal. We talk about the more important things in life, share a little or a lot about ourselves and really enjoy spending time together in any number of venues. In many instances it would be a fair call to say that I am emotionally attached…I enjoy that and knowing that it is equally returned. Friends can be those that I like a great deal, enjoy spending time with, hanging out together…and we do share an intimacy that is not broadly known to the outside world. This type of friend…I put my trust in and suppose it would be a fair call to say that I take a few “emotional risks” …although expectations remain well balanced. This type of friend can also be a very intimate lover that I can explore with and experience as a person. | Now when…which really is the basis for why I am here, when we get to exchange the delightful benefits that can be found…granted “pants privileges” as someone here has said…it often comes early in the friendship and forms part of that bond. That is the time when communication becomes critical as we now on the sacred ground of when men and woman interact on a physical, intimate and emotional level. I really enjoy that part of an intimate friendship with the benefits that come with it. If all I really intended or wanted to experience was purely physical, I would look elsewhere…and not expose any of my own vulnerabilities to assessment. I am just a human and full of my own thoughts, feelings, emotions…and those seven senses. | Here comes the part that can get a bit sticky…as it is just a part of my personality and the way that I enjoy expressing myself to someone that I doubt will ever change much, or at least I hope not. I am a fair bit of a romantic at heart, always have been…and maybe that’s what made my study romance languages seemed easy. I like the lost art of seduction…and equally being seduced. I like going out to dinner and picking up the tab, showing up with something unexpected or for no reason at all sending a silly or trashy (maybe even both) text message in the middle of the day. Too, I like it if the tables are turned…send me a bouquet of Cohibas, say let’s meet this weekend to kill this bottle of the really good stuff I have had stashed for a few years…or the surprise package you ordered has arrived full of things we were looking at things on the internet and laughing together. Don’t even ask what happens if you are a good cook and enjoy spending time in the kitchen…the oven and stove may just be the least of things on that are on fire. Just be sure that our glasses are always half full and we flip a coin to see who does the dishes. That’s all part of being friends…and I enjoy how it works. | Where it goes wrong is when the code of conduct changes (or maybe wasn’t communicated as clearly as it should have been) and I find out that I am emotionally responsible…and worst of all for the “happiness” of the other person. I think we should be able to be happy just because we are and share that, not really only “happy if” or “happy when”…if we don’t really like the company we keep when we are alone, chances are it isn’t going to be something anyone else can fix if that makes sense? Warning signs are pretty easy to read along the road…but as this is now starting to look even to me like one of those soliloquies, I will just leave it here and happy to answer any questions is anyone cares to ask. | So in the end…maybe that is the solution? Communication…if you feel something, feel differently or even have question, just ask. Could be time just to kick back in your chair, put your boots up on the fence railing, open a good bottle of JD Black and say…”Let’s talk”. I wonder if that would work. Maybe...maybe not, but sure would be a damn good start.
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RHP User
15 years ago
I've had a couple of FWB arrangements in the past (although we called it "backscratching") and in all cases we had a very clear arrangement right from the outset. We liked the sound of one another enough to meet; we liked one another at meeting enough to make out for a while; and we liked that enough to see how we connected in bed.I grew to be good friends with all of my backscratching buddies but we didn't start out looking to become friends and then bring the sex into it. We had clear boundaries - we weren't interested in dating or getting into one another's lives, and if that happened we had a clear easy-out clause if one of us felt we (or the other) might be becoming a bit emotionally attached. I'm a bit of a romantic and, like Snowshoe, I do think there's a place for chivalry. I've made dinner for my buddies; caught up for a movie; gone for drives - that being said, we always did something, even if it was just a pash in the back row or the back seat, or a bit of a grope while I did the dishes! We met up because we were wanting physical contact, sexual contact... I already had friends I'd go to the movies with or have dinner with, or go away for weekends with - so did my buddies. We were missing someone we could enjoy open, uninhibited physical intimacy with.We always knew that it wasn't the same as it is with someone we loved. Part of our arrangement was a temporary time-out if someone began to seriously date someone else. I think (and so did my buddies) that sex with the one you love is way better than with a buddy, and we factored that in.LuxeLaces' response gelled most with my experience and I don't think I'm alone... for what that's worth.
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N4November
15 years ago
I think fionabee simply captures the intent of what a FWB means to me (with a hook thrown at snowhoe which I wouldn't mind throwing one myself :p) Quoting 'fionabee' I spend time with my female friends. I chat to them often, call in, do things with and for them and I dont expect to marry them Snowshoe...you can wine and dine me anyday sweetie.....and I promise not to rearrange your kitchen cupboards for you. I care very much about my friends and lovers. Chick thing? Perhaps. But I am fortunate that my FWB friendships are reciprocated. Would I be devastated if they were to say that they had found someone? Selfishly yes to be losing a lover but I would be genuinely happy for them. I wouldn't continue or push to keep seeing them. At the end of the day FWB is about friendship and respect - respect of privacy; respecting each others boundaries; and last but not least, being sexually intimate with another person without doing their ironing!! And lets be honest - if the sex wasn't great - we wouldn't be returning again and again now would we?? hahah I make no apologies in saying that I hope I get hit with the love stick quickly or alternatively, love follows slowly over time with someone I meet in the future or already know. I like knowing that the future is full of unknown opportunities, just as my sexual and life experiences are. Overall, I'm in a very happy place and I strongly believe that like attracts like. Life isn't perfect but having intimate relationships with open communication is a perfect balance/alternative to the restrictions conventional dating places on society (especially on women). xxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
I must be lucky but there is a special lady I'm lucky enough to call friends with benefits and its been like that from the get go. I set a boundry on or about or third or so face to face where I simply said up front that I'm not wanting to make this purely about sex and then chased sex the next interaction as soon as I could get it. I tried to make it clear that I'm not just making a booty call and that even though I had come out of my way to do the "friend" thing that time it wasn't leverage I was collecting for payment. I think it's set a clear boundary and its working. I've had some great experiences since then and I'm confident enough to say that there is no guilt or sense of owing for the friendship stuff, its not a trade or anything like that Rob
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RHP User
15 years ago
...and the merits on neither. Heard that before? Your quote " The Women" may mean that you're spreading yourself thin in effort and averaging your performance across the total. Keeping things 'Casual' is a man concept only half heartedly supported by women. And only for a limited period (like a bridging loan). Women consider many factors secretly we wish they would'nt, like "I hope I don't get an STD from any of his other casualities"(beneficiaries) and "If he really liked me, he'd know by now and want to be with me exclusively" (see book called "He's just not that into you" by some killjoy author who's name elludes me on purpose). So communication has nothing to do with it, they're all outa words when it comes time for actions speaking louder. Your times up Mr! lucky to have played for however long you have hey?
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RHP User
15 years ago
Having read this topic and all the postings again, and re-thinking things...it is a matter of perception...and changing perceptions. I think it is possible for men and women to be friends and enjoy the sexual side of thier nature without things turning traditional and committed..... BUT.....most women are emotional creatures and wear thier hearts on thier sleeves. You are doing all the right things and so are they. If thier feelings and expectations change, you are telling them that things are still the same for you, you dont want a committed one on one relationship, and they start to back off. You have wined them and dined them and played the part of concerned and intereested friend to perfection. They have started to think that maybe you do want more. It is thier expectations that have changed. There is nothing you can do to fix this. Just keep on trying and eventually you will find some women that can handle the status quo. Personally I like to be wined and dined. I like the man to pick up the tab. I like that my friends stay in touch, that they do and say unexpected little romantic gestures. It means that they are thinking of me apart from the sexual side. In fact my profile even states this. Maintain the contact or look else where. You stick to your guns Snowshoe. What you seek is possible....just hard to find!
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Tonyerotic' Keeping things 'Casual' is a man concept only half heartedly supported by women. And only for a limited period (like a bridging loan). Women consider many factors secretly we wish they would'nt, like "I hope I don't get an STD from any of his other casualities"(beneficiaries) and "If he really liked me, he'd know by now and want to be with me exclusively" (see book called "He's just not that into you" by some killjoy author who's name elludes me on purpose). hi Tony - i've enjoyed your forum posts, welcome! however, on this one - nope. we women simply don't need to "secretly" think anything. i just flat out disagree with what you say here - perpetuating a stereotype that i pretty much spend my entire time disproving ;) we don't just say what you want to hear while being secretly halfhearted. and with respect, i find the notion that we say one thing and secretly want something else more than a little disrespectful - like we, as women, can't say and do what we mean, or enter into a clearly defined FWB agreement without any other agenda. from what i've heard and read from "he's just not that into you" (although books like this and "the rules" make me want to stab myself in the eye rather than read them all the way through), this book is referring to more traditional dating between men and women. but since we're mentioning dating (very far from the FWB scenario), i do agree that men have a very great tendancy to take advantage of a sexual relationship with women, taking it on face value rather than realising that women are seeing more into it (there's the female point of view of the same situation you describe). being a very sexual woman means that i constantly come up against this - i start romantically dating a man, then sleep with him relatively soon - because i want to! and he wants to! so why not?? but this then turns the relationship, in his eyes, into simply sex! itt seems that men have very limited ability, if i can throw the sexual stereotypes back the other way (!), to see libidinous or sexually openminded women in a romantic/dating light. as i move more into the dating sphere this year (outside of my excellent, stable, no-drama FWB whom i get to play with after another awful day out on the coalface of dating), i find myself forced into a contrasting situation where i do, in fact, have to represent myself falsely and tell half-truths. in particular, i have had to make a new year's resolution to keep my sexuality more to myself, to appear more like other girls. the old withholding sex thing - just so i'm not pigeonholed and taken advantage of. i am practising my demure face as we speak. even with the most forward-thinking men, i have given up on them being able to reconcile sex early in the game with a romantic attachment. it does not paint men in a good light, and it's always so disappointing - as if the chivalry and thoughtfulness stop as soon as my clothes come off. that i have now been classed as a good roll in the hay, rather than relationship material. i feel like it's the 1950s, but there it is - men are their own worst enemy with this, precluding themselves from scoring a sexually positive woman as their partner through this preconceived notion. however, that's a whooooole other ballgame to the FWB scenario where both partners are approaching it with clearly defined rules. in fact, it makes having a FWB all the sweeter. it provides an opportunity for me to express my full sexuality without having to withhold anything, nor pretend to be anything other than full of wanton lust for my lover - who continues to be chivalrous, to wine and dine, as it were, even after we've defiled each other, and nearly every room in his house besides. and that's class. :)
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RHP User
15 years ago
Hear hear. Totally agree.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'MsValkyrie'being a very sexual woman means that i constantly come up against this - i start romantically dating a man, then sleep with him relatively soon - because i want to! and he wants to! so why not?? but this then turns the relationship, in his eyes, into simply sex! it seems that men have very limited ability, if i can throw the sexual stereotypes back the other way (!), to see libidinous or sexually openminded women in a romantic/dating light. as i move more into the dating sphere this year (outside of my excellent, stable, no-drama FWB whom i get to play with after another awful day out on the coalface of dating), i find myself forced into a contrasting situation where i do, in fact, have to represent myself falsely and tell half-truths. in particular, i have had to make a new year's resolution to keep my sexuality more to myself, to appear more like other girls. the old withholding sex thing - just so i'm not pigeonholed and taken advantage of. i am practising my demure face as we speak. even with the most forward-thinking men, i have given up on them being able to reconcile sex early in the game with a romantic attachment. it does not paint men in a good light, and it's always so disappointing - as if the chivalry and thoughtfulness stop as soon as my clothes come off. that i have now been classed as a good roll in the hay, rather than relationship material. i feel like it's the 1950s, but there it is - men are their own worst enemy with this, precluding themselves from scoring a sexually positive woman as their partner through this preconceived notion. however, that's a whooooole other ballgame to the FWB scenario where both partners are approaching it with clearly defined rules. in fact, it makes having a FWB all the sweeter. it provides an opportunity for me to express my full sexuality without having to withhold anything, nor pretend to be anything other than full of wanton lust for my lover - who continues to be chivalrous, to wine and dine, as it were, even after we've defiled each other, and nearly every room in his house besides. and that's class. :) Given your extensive knowledge in these matters I'm sure I don't have to introduce you to the Madonna/whore dichotomy - men do quite inexplicably find very sexual women challenging. You're quite right that we're our own worst enemy, but if we were in control of it we would surely not behave that way. Finding a very sexual woman with whom we feel we could foster love for should be our finest hour, yet for some reason we commonly can't seem to have both. We're wired strangely in that regard, but I dare say it's not our fault. As you say, FWB is very sweet in that regard, as it completely precludes the choice of Madonna or whore - it's a whole different realm.You FWB sounds like a lucky guy!
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RHP User
15 years ago
I started reading thinking this could be useful as I am one of those women that can get attached and blur the lines but now I am seriously thinking maybe I should just give up sex and friendship and put up with tension headaches and irritability. I back away when I realise I can't re-negotiate the boundaries because he is clear about what he's prepared to give. Maybe one day I can be friends again, but until I undo the attachment, I need to keep totally clear of him, no phone calls, no coffees, no conversation. Maybe the women who started getting attached are looking after their own hearts in a way that works for them. WILDly sympathetic
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RHP User
15 years ago
I get attached to ALL my firends. Some of them I just love to pieces. Platonic or otherwise. This is the problem Snowshoe is facing is that the women get attached and start wanting more than friendship. I see nothing at all wrong with having a friend with benefits and being attached to them. I do it to mine.It is a matter of recognising and accepting that IF he / she finds someone they want to be with permanently, the friendship can (and i my case does) remain and the benefits drop out. When you want more than the friendship and he has made it abundantly clear that more is not on offer, it is time to withdraw...yes. It is the ony way to protect the heart. The lines of friendship are always blurry anyway and when sex becomes involved, even more so as many women do not give thier bodies without emotional attachment. Nothing wrong with that either. Just realise that all sexual relationships do not have to end with a trip down the aisle, one person only, forsaking all others type of commitment.
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RHP User
15 years ago
Firstly, I'm really impressed with the quality of responses in this thread - there have been a lot of things posted that have convinced me that I'm not alone with this conundrum and that there are ways through it. How about we take a stab at formalising some of the rules? (Guidelines more than rules, really.) Sort of a "top ten" (or however many) suggestions for establishing and maintaining a successful FWB relationship?Obviously, high on the list needs to be:1) Ensure from the outset that your partner knows that your preference is for a FWB relationship - this is probably redundant in the context we're discussing it in, but has to happen.2) Explain what that means to you and ask them what it means to them - this is where MsV can tell people that her diverse and keen interest in sex doesn't mean she can be treated with disrespect. Also, we can explain what friendship means to us and the sorts of things (if anything) we might expect to do outside of the bedroom.Some less obvious and perhaps contentious points might be:3) No exit without full disclosure - even if one person wants out, they agree up front to respect the other enough to tell them why, fully and frankly. Chances are that would make it easier for both to get over their feelings of friendship.4) No follow-up - when one person says it's over, it's over. This is necessary for 3) to be realistically achievable.Are there other things that you can think of that might help? Sometimes it's hard to say that you're developing feelings for the other person - would it be easier if there was something like a "stopword" set up from the start? Something that said "you're getting too close" without being confrontational?Is this approach realistic? Can we develop something here that may help people negotiate the minefield that is FWB? I'd love to think we can...
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RHP User
15 years ago
Firstly....Snowshoe....excellent topic!I agree with so much of what has already been said...but if Im honest with myself...my mind and wants change like the weather!Some days I think...yeah...no drama...i can do the whole FB/casual thing...and i really sincerely wish I could...but i cant.I cant do sex without feelings...Well...i can...but its never great...so i dont want to any more.I want to be in love. Simple.BUTat the moment...for me that means...being able to show love...and have it reciprocated...without fear...without either of us pulling back.I cant do rules.I much prefer knowing that minds and hearts are open to whatever comes along.Love is a fluid thing...indefinable...ebbing and flowing...accepting...caring....open...passionate....honest.Perhaps i AM looking for a friend with benefits...I dont know.But I dont think I could handle knowing he has others...this is so damn confusing!!If i dont know my own mind...how the hell is a guy meant to be able to work it out??? lol!JMO....BJxxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'MissBJ' I agree with so much of what has already been said...but if Im honest with myself...my mind and wants change like the weather!Some days I think...yeah...no drama...i can do the whole FB/casual thing...and i really sincerely wish I could...but i cant.I cant do sex without feelings...Well...i can...but its never great...so i dont want to any more.I want to be in love. Simple.BUTat the moment...for me that means...being able to show love...and have it reciprocated...without fear...without either of us pulling back.I cant do rules.I much prefer knowing that minds and hearts are open to whatever comes along.Love is a fluid thing...indefinable...ebbing and flowing...accepting...caring....open...passionate....honest.Perhaps i AM looking for a friend with benefits...I dont know.But I dont think I could handle knowing he has others...this is so damn confusing!!If i dont know my own mind...how the hell is a guy meant to be able to work it out??? lol! My definition of FWB certainly doesn't include sex without feelings and I wouldn't lump it together with casual sex at all. I suppose I see casual, FWB and love as the three equally spaced markers on a line. To add to the confusion, the definition of love you provided is arguably appropriate for friendship too, don't you think? Are you really looking for a friend with exclusive benefits? (FWEB? :-)So you can't do rules and don't know your own mind? Perhaps the guidelines I suggested previously are approaching the issue from entirely the wrong angle? Should we be trying to devise something that we can use to protect ourselves instead of something to negotiate a relationship? I'm open to suggestions...
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RHP User
15 years ago
Quoting 'Snowshoe' My definition of FWB certainly doesn't include sex without feelings and I wouldn't lump it together with casual sex at all. I suppose I see casual, FWB and love as the three equally spaced markers on a line. To add to the confusion, the definition of love you provided is arguably appropriate for friendship too, don't you think? Are you really looking for a friend with exclusive benefits? (FWEB? :-)So you can't do rules and don't know your own mind? Perhaps the guidelines I suggested previously are approaching the issue from entirely the wrong angle? Should we be trying to devise something that we can use to protect ourselves instead of something to negotiate a relationship? I'm open to suggestions... Oh no...I dont put FWB in with FB either....and if i had to say....i would class FWB and love as only fractions apart.Its only the depth of the love that changes.I think what I mean by rules is....eg: youre my FB...so there is no way things will progress because we are only FB's.And no...I dont always know my own mind...because I change and adapt what I want...depending on what is available.No point cutting off my nose to spite my face...because Im looking for love...but a perfectly acceptable man isnt.My desires are not rigid.As long as the basics are there...the rest is negotiable.JMO....BJxxx
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RHP User
15 years ago
Hi! Snowshoe:) I would Love to be in a Sexual Relationship and treated by My Lovers as you do so well.I'd love to be Wined, Dined, Seduced . Be appreciated by My Lover whose very attentive to me etc.. I can't think of anything I'd like more.as a lead up to a night Passionate Sexual Intimacy. However My Bain is that I have Lovers who are just that ,because they are so attracted to me that I don't get any further than the Bedroom .I've now Cultivated Friendships with Older Guys who do enjoy sharing the Wining and Dining. My Company as an Intelligent ,Witty Woman who can hold a converation .Both situatons are pleasureable but My Ideal would to have all of this In a few of the Guys .So that I may enjoy them get to know them on more than 1 level. It is iperetive to commnicate so both of you have the same Prorities in this Relationship.then no one gets hurt .....Good Luck with your Dating ...Regards Lu :)
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RHP User
15 years ago
...take my foot out of my mouth. Yeah, apologies Ms Valkyrie, I was generalising and stereotyping to the point of annoying women. It does work both ways and I think I have been at both ends of the stick as well. I do maintain, as you do, that women think deeply more quickly than men from my experience. And why not? If it's going well, then why not be the first the try step things up a notch. Being exclusive to one another is a safer, less confusing and more stable platform to both arrive at. It's the non-syncronous arrival that can ring the alarm bells of 'Commitment' for men and 'Smother' for women (add/omit words as each gender pleases - only a rough example). FWB can have other FWB's and accordingly they may have FWB's... The possibilities are endless. (lets hope so anyway). MissBJ - reading your post is interesting. Constant change is an unaviodable universal law - change is good though sometimes unwelcome don't you think? I assert we all seek Love (fluid or Vapor type) and it is scary, love is a lot of things and could go on for hours about it myself. Ideally unconditional but therein lies the danger of there being 'No' conditions in which it cannot exist (like with your children should you have any). I have tried to love someone for all they are - AND - all they are not. (and failed from time to time). WildTassieGypsie, I think you may be pertaining to the 'Desire/attachment/sorrow' cycle as described by bhuddist monks? The only way to break the cycle is the gap between sorrow and desire. Therefore, avoiding the desire which invariably leads to attachment(however long for) and sorrow when it ends. Life may become less exciting but correspondingly less traumatic. Giving rise to the experience of Tranquillity. Interesting notion. Thanks Ms Valkyrie, I do feel welcome. And thanks for reading. I've been off/on here for a decade(as a cpl and single and always genuine in a single authentic profile). Ten/Ten till we do it again.
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